Looking for a Microsoft person who can help w/ v6 and Office365 email

Ted Mittelstaedt tedm at ipinc.net
Thu Apr 2 12:53:45 CEST 2015

On 4/2/2015 3:07 AM, Bill Owens wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 3:38 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net
> <mailto:tedm at ipinc.net>> wrote:
>  >
>  > I guess I don't understand why this is an IPv6 issue.
>  >
>  > You said:
>  >
>  > "...we've discovered that there are sporadic failures even when there
> are valid SPF records...""
>  >
>  > If there are sporadic failures internally in Microsoft how can they
>  > guarantee that those sporadic failures will go away if you change to
>  > IPv4?
> It's an IPv6 issue because Microsoft has made it their policy to require
> SPF (or DKIM) for mail that arrives over IPv6 transport, and not for
> mail that arrives over IPv4. This particular topic was brought up a few
> months ago:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de/msg01549.html
>   It's also documented by Microsoft themselves:
> https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn720852%28v=exchg.150%29.aspx
>   And apparently the MAAWG agrees, for whatever that's worth:
> https://www.m3aawg.org/sites/maawg/files/news/M3AAWG_Inbound_IPv6_Policy_Issues-2014-09.pdf
> So yes, I can guarantee that the problem will go away by changing to IPv4.
> ​ ​

You said in your original post that they were ALSO losing mail during 
INTERNAL transfers WITHIN their system.

If they receive mail via IPv4 and then transfer it from server to server 
via IPv6 and there is no SPF record it seems to me that the
same problem will happen.  You had said this much was already happening.

It just sounds to me like your making excuses for them.

It sounds like the same problem those sex-trafficked victims have.
Their pimps beat them and they still make excuses for their pimps and
defend them.

Microsoft is beating you up and your making excuses for them.

No difference from my viewpoint.

This SPF on IPv6 only is clearly ridiculous policy.  It is juvenile.

> I could therefore 'fix' the problem by simply admitting defeat.

Leaving a vendor that is abusing you is not admitting defeat.  It is
embracing liberation.  Your abuser - Microsoft - has programmed you
into believing that leaving them means you are a failure.  Deprogram
yourself and come to the light.

Microsoft has done many things right. Like Windows XP and Windows 7  But 
they have done many things
wrong.  O365 is some of their trash.  As is Surface RT.  and Windows 8. 
  And many others.  Just because you use the right things of theirs does 
not mean you must suck up their trash as well.
  ​ ​
> I don't want to do that, because I want to move towards IPv6 ;)
> I *could* also solve the problem by switching to Google, because
> although they check SPF for IPv6 their internal policies are somewhat
> different and much more forgiving. But before moving on to that question
> I'd like to see whether it's possible to get Microsoft to work a little
> harder on fixing their problem(s).

Why switch to Google?  There are plenty of other email providers out 
there.  Google, Microsoft and Apple are not the computer universe.

>  > You called Microsoft and gave their support team a fair chance to fix
>  > the problem.  They didn't.  Cut your losses and move on.  There are
>  > plenty of other cloud providers who are offering email that works.
> By the time Microsoft finally fixes O365 you will be retired and so will I.
> I think I've been more than fair, especially when the standard refrain
> from their support people appears to be "this service doesn't really
> work, you should stop using it." And let me be clear that I didn't
> choose Office365 and don't recommend it. However, it isn't my sole
> decision; the IT function in our company does not report to me. And the
> choice to out-source email has a number of drivers that aren't relevant
> at this point.

Now your making excuses for other execs in your org.  Why do you protect
these people who beat you up so much?

Just tell your people we are switching, and do it.  99% of them don't 
give a rat's ass where the email comes from or how it's handled in the 
back end as long as it shows up in their Outlook inbox.

> Like I said, I do want to work harder with Microsoft to get this fixed,
> both for us and for anyone else who would like to use v6 transport for
> their Outlook365 email. I just need to find someone within Microsoft who
> is also willing to work at it.

You (your org) is paying MS money.  That, and bug reports, is -all- you 
owe them.  It's not your responsibility to fix Microsoft.  You explained 
their problem to them.  Now it's their responsibility to fix.  Don't 
worry they are big boys.

I may sound like a hard-ass but I learned a long time ago that when my 
employers (and customers - as today, my employers are all customers) are
given too much information by me to them, they feel as though I am 
asking them to make decisions.  And they will oblige.

If I call a plumber in to fix a sink I expect the plumber to come in and
fix it and leave.  I don't expect the plumber to spend an hour 
discussing the current trends in the plumbing industry or give me a
dissertation as to why brass is better than plastic.

if the plumber arrives and starts doing that - tells me all about brass 
and plastic fittings and such - then I will feel compelled to voice my
uninformed opinions which ultimately will further complicate the job.

Similarly, if a customer calls me to come in and fix a system, I will 
come in and do it.  I will NOT spend 3 hours giving them a history of 
the Internet or explaining all about the current war between Google and 
Microsoft and why we are going with one or the other or with someone 
different.  I will just come in and pick the pieces of the system that I 
feel are the best, and plug them in together and hand the finished piece 
to the customer.  I don't try to weasel out of responsibility for my 

That's what your boss and my customers want.  They don't want to be 
drawn into choosing Microsoft and such.  That's your job.  They just 
want you to fix it.

You're complicating this by pulling them in to make this 
sit-around-the-campfire-and-have-a-feel-good-confab and paying attention 
to their opinions.  If their opinions were competent ones they wouldn't 
have hired you to fix the problem.  Don't pay attention to what the "IT 
function" in the company is doing, if they were truly in charge you 
wouldn't even be here bringing all of this up because you wouldn't be in 
the loop at all.  You're in charge, take the bull by the balls and start 
calling other providers, get your ducks in line, get the research done, 
then move to a functioning provider and dump O365 - or get out of the 
kitchen and let someone else come in and do it.

Power is not given.  Power is taken.  Learn that and power will be your 
servant the rest of your life.


> Bill.
> ​PS - I'm only 47, so I hope that I can see widespread IPv6 adoption
> before I retire ;)​

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