UPnP/IPv6 support in home routers?

Tue Dec 12 16:25:57 CET 2017

I believe that one is regarding the CPE (router) basic level security recommendations. Something similar for the end devices would be better IMO, as it can provide an API to the applications running on the machine to enable inbound/outbound flows as required with required user interaction prompts (do you want to allow application ‘x’ to do action ‘y’)? That way instead of having to perform sniffing to know the state of the socket, it can be managed by a kernel level API.

________________________________
From: Tim Chown <Tim.Chown at jisc.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:17:33 AM
To: Kristian McColm
Cc: Jan Pedro Tumusok; ipv6-ops at lists.cluenet.de
Subject: Re: UPnP/IPv6 support in home routers?

Is that not RFC6092?

iirc, that supports e2e IKE+IPSec, for example.

Tim

> On 12 Dec 2017, at 15:03, Kristian McColm <Kristian.McColm at rci.rogers.com> wrote:
>
> Is it not feasible just as it is for CPE to come with a firewall with a sane set of defaults, that the device manufacturer would sell it with a similar set of defaults? Perhaps we can go as far as writing this into an RFC or expanding upon RFC 7721?
>
> From: ipv6-ops-bounces+kristian.mccolm=rci.rogers.com at lists.cluenet.de <ipv6-ops-bounces+kristian.mccolm=rci.rogers.com at lists.cluenet.de> on behalf of Jan Pedro Tumusok <jpt at eyenetworks.no>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:45:17 AM
> To: ipv6-ops at lists.cluenet.de
> Subject: Re: UPnP/IPv6 support in home routers?
>
> Hi,
>
> What about alle the people that are not able to setup their own filters and other security mechanisms? Most people got this computer stuff for usage and not to thinker with or spend ours figuring out the best type of configuration.
> How do we give them a bit more security than wide open devices?
>
> Pedro
>
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 10:12 PM, Kristian McColm <Kristian.McColm at rci.rogers.com> wrote:
> Fernando, sorry but we’ll have to agree to disagree. I personally see stateful firewalls as a pain point. They don’t do a very good job of tracking socket states and often cause packet loss for this reason, they are not well aware of the true socket state, they just try to replicate it based on sniffing, which doesn’t work very well for stateless protocols I might add. Of course all this sniffing is something the forefathers of the internet never intended us to need to do. I would suggest you can always implement filters and other security mechanisms on your own devices, which should be done as a matter of best practice regardless.  I certainly wouldn’t want to rely on some ‘crap’ CPE given to me by my service provider to protect my end devices from all the other ‘crap’ out there 😊
>
> From: fernando.gont.netbook.win at gmail.com <fernando.gont.netbook.win at gmail.com> on behalf of Fernando Gont <fernando at gont.com.ar>
> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:00:17 PM
> To: Kristian McColm
> Cc: ipv6-ops at lists.cluenet.de; Fernando Gont
> Subject: Re: UPnP/IPv6 support in home routers?
>
> The crap doesn't get fixed because that's the software development we are used to. Windows 10 was Windows '95 in the '90s. So give the IoT stuff 15-20 years to get to a sensible quality/state/security and/or enough widespread trouble/exploitation.
>
> Pragmatically speaking, people will connect that crap to the 'net... and the "less connected" such devices are, the better.
> So, please, don't remove FWs. :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Fernando
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Kristian McColm <Kristian.McColm at rci.rogers.com> wrote:
> And therein lies the root of the problem.. the ‘crap’ never gets fixed because it has the firewall isolating it, but this causes problems for devices and applications which are not ‘crap.’ I realize this is more idealistic than pragmatic, but we will have much smoother network integration if we don’t have to deal with the many problems that so called stateful firewalls bring along with them. Now that IPv6 is set to do away with (P/N)AT, we’re halfway there.
>
> From: fernando.gont.netbook.win at gmail.com <fernando.gont.netbook.win at gmail.com> on behalf of Fernando Gont <fernando at gont.com.ar>
> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 3:43:27 PM
> To: Kristian McColm
> Cc: ipv6-ops at lists.cluenet.de; Fernando Gont
>
> Subject: Re: UPnP/IPv6 support in home routers?
>
> Kristian,
>
> I see no reason for which they should disappear. Actually, quite the opposite; we keep connecting more and more crap to the net (the so called IoT), which clearly cannot defend itself.
>
> The "principle of least privilege" applies to connectivity, too.
>
> Thanks!
> Fernando
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Kristian McColm <Kristian.McColm at rci.rogers.com> wrote:
> Corporate and/or specific network requirements notwithstanding, in my opinion this is just another example of why in IPv6, firewalls in general could/should be retired. If the end user device is required to be responsible for it’s own security, it can open the necessary ports via whatever firewall API it provides to applications running on it.
>
>
> From: ipv6-ops-bounces+kristian.mccolm=rci.rogers.com at lists.cluenet.de <ipv6-ops-bounces+kristian.mccolm=rci.rogers.com at lists.cluenet.de> on behalf of Doug McIntyre <merlyn at geeks.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 10:22:39 AM
> To: ipv6-ops at lists.cluenet.de
> Subject: Re: UPnP/IPv6 support in home routers?
>
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 04:03:27PM +0100, Gert Doering wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 11:54:15AM +0000, Tom Hill wrote:
> > > "Dear Gateway, I am definitely not a compromised host, please open all
> > > ports toward me."
> >
> > But that's the whole idea of UPnP or IGD.  Whether you open one port or
> > all of them, on request of a possibly-compromised host, is of no relevance.
>
>
> I think the thinking is that since most IPv4 "home" protocols (which
> is really only where UPnP exists, since Enterprise class firewalls
> almost never want to have anything to do with it), is that most of the
> "home" protocols (eg. games, streaming, etc) have mostly converged to
> a model not expecting end-to-end connectivity, and hidden behind a NAT
> thing, that anything now transitioning to IPv6 will follow suit when
> they add that support to whatever needs to punch holes in things,
> instead checking in constantly with the "central server" instead of
> assuming end-to-end connectivity.
>
> That said, I think the IPv6 firewalls need better home connectivity
> support as well. I once put in a ticket to Fortinet to ask if there
> could be made an ACL object that tracked the prefix mask delivered via
> DHCP6_PD, such that we could write policies such as
>           allow remote_ipv6_address ${PREFIX1}::1f5d:50 22
>
> But that couldn't be impressed on the first tiers of support
> what-so-ever.  That totally confused them to no end. Unlike my IPv4
> address which almost never changes at Comcast, the IPv6 prefixes I get
> change on every connection.
>
>
>
>
>
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> Jan Pedro Tumusok
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> Eye Networks AS
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