From the dualstack-is-fun department...

[Cameron Byrne]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Andrew Yourtchenko <ayourtch at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Cameron Byrne <cb.list6 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Andrew Yourtchenko <ayourtch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Yes, we already have in the latest text:
>>>
>>> "Debugging and Troubleshooting
>>>
>>> This mechanism is aimed to help the user experience in case of connectivity
>>> problems. However, this precise reason also makes it tougher to use these
>>> applications as a means of the verification that the problems are fixed. To
>>> assist in that regard, the applications implementing the proposal in this
>>> document SHOULD also provide a mechanism to temporarily use only one
>>> address family."
>>>
>>> Too weak ? Wrong approach ?
>>>
>>
>> I don't there is anything that you could write in an IETF draft that
>> would make joe-six-pack understand or care about HE.
>
> The joe-six-pack who is supporting the IE6 corporate person ?
>

does not matter.

> That paragraph is for the folks who write the code, not for the support/user.
>
> The support guy will simply know "to support customers with IE6, flip that
> green button into 'off' position before following the script".
>

Sorry, brief interlude for my favorite web video about help desk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8_Kfjo3VjU

>>>
>>> ...and "no-one changed anything". (That's what everyone says for the
>>
>> Most browsers i have update themselves, or windows update, or apt-get
>> update them and i generally don't care to know what the updating is
>> that happened... updates are good in my world.  In some larger
>> corporate environments i know, IE6 is mandatory.
>
> I suppose that given the IE6's security posture, they use it only on
> the intranets.
>

Um.  No comment.  But,
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/07/internet-explorer-gains-market-share-so-does-ie6.ars
 Recent survey has IE6 in a non-trivial spot.


>>
>>> past 15 or so years, I keep asking just in case, to see how often it's
>>> "we changed X and Y has broken". I can count the occasions on fingers
>>> of one hand, vs. the ~mid-4-digits number of the other outcome. So
>>> fundamentally nothing changes - it breaks by itself today too :-)
>>
>> Yep.  And software updates are just like that.  They happen by
>> themselves, literally.
>
> As soon as they do not interrupt anything - that's fine.
> And in the vast majority of the scenarios - they don't.
> IE6, if anything, is an argument *for* the updates.
>

Agreed.  But, that does not change anything in the real world.

>>
>>>
>>> (but seriously: appreciate all of the comments. I thought the above
>>> blurb about troubleshooting in the draft should be enough, but maybe
>>> it is not too strongly worded.
>>
>> When was the last time your read a warning label on a beer bottle?
>
> I've just checked a couple of Belgian beers - there are no warnings on them.
> Seems like it "just works" - even if the spec is so ill-defined there
> are too many
> competing implementations of Belgian Beer.
>
> I think the beer example makes a case there's probably no One True Answer.
>
> How about - "lookup in the DNS happyeyeballs-off.<host-domain-name> to
> see if this algorithm needs to be turned off" ?
>

I think you overestimate the tolerance and enthusiasm thousands of
network operators will have for this.  I may be wrong.  This reminds
me of recent v6ops flame war where the co-creator of 6to4 refused to
admit that 6to4 was ever an issue and could possibly in any way harm
v6 deployment.

I am not saying HE is bad in any way, i am just saying we need to go
real slow and be VERY grounded in reality.  The only way i can think
to do that is to add MUST NOT be on by default.  HE is a good
work-around *NOT A FIX* for broken connections.... and masking issues
is only ok for a short time if we are really going to follow-up and
fix it.  That said, lets wait for symptoms before applying the
tourniquet, and yes, HE is a tourniquet... but hopefully only cutting
off circulation on a per destination basis for a short amount of time.

Cameron

> cheers,
> andrew
>